Going through tribulation doesn't mean we are abandoned to anguish. "Though a thousand may fall at your side, and ten thousand at your right hand, no harm will come near you. You will only see it with your eyes and witness the punishment of the wicked." (Ps 91) This sounds to me like a "great tribulation" and for those that make YHVH their fortress, their promise is NO harm. I believe this.
Also, Rev 20:4-6 speaks of the first resurrection of the saints who refused the mark of the beast of the tribulation and the second resurrection a thousand years later when everyone else will be judged guilty. "Blessed are those who take part of the FIRST resurrection." But Pre and Mid Trib theories falsely assume TWO first resurrections, one at rapture and the other at Christ's return when the tribulation saints are resurrected 7 or 3.5 years later.
Psalm 91 shows the pattern clearly: God doesn’t remove His people from the place of shaking. He protects them in the middle of it. Revelation follows that same rhythm.
Your point about Revelation 20 is right on target. John only describes one “first resurrection,” and it belongs to those who stayed faithful through the beast’s reign. Pre-trib and mid-trib systems have to create an earlier version of that event to make their timelines work, but the text itself never separates them.
You’ve outlined the very real tension well. The promise is endurance with God’s covering, not an early exit!!
The “thread” is the claim that the 24 elders in Revelation represent the already-raptured church; if that identification isn’t supported by the text, the entire pre-trib timeline built on it falls apart.
I fully believe the church goes through the trib. Protected from God's wrath poured out just as israel was in Egypt. However, the church will still be subject to the wrath of men and antichrist and will suffer persecution and martyrdom
Also, one point on my views. The 1000 yr Millennium will see a renewal in part. Surviving humanity that enters in sees long lives, animals no longer devouring each other, harmony in nature restored...many changes, but not yet the final transformation or glorification that awaits the eternal state
Actually, my premill, post-Trib views tie in pretty closely to what you are saying here. The Lord returns. Living and dead saints are translated into ressurection bodies. Glorified. They make the descent with the Lord to earth. The Lord sets up the 1000 yr millennium. After which is the eternal state of the New Heavens and New Earth. The saints dwelling eternally upon the New Earth.
If I understand your position here, there might be some differences between our views, but they seem to parallel.
When or if you ever get to it, the pre-tribbers make a big deal about the 24 elders in Rev, claiming it is the rapture church. I would be interested in your views on that question of who they are.
Greg, thanks again for the thoughtful engagement. It really means a lot to me, very thankful!
On the 24 elders, I lean toward them being part of the long-standing heavenly council rather than the “raptured church.” Nothing in the scene reads like a freshly resurrected group. They’re already enthroned and functioning, which fits the biblical council pattern far better.
And one thing that’s often missed: John’s symbolism isn’t mystical or fantastical. He’s using shared imagery and coded language that his first-century communities would immediately recognize. It protected them under Rome and allowed him to speak truth without putting those assemblies in direct danger.
I’ll unpack it more in the full article, but that’s the heart of where I’m coming from.
You have to please forgive me. I accidentally hit the wrong button, I was doing this at a stoplight, which is ignorant. Here’s the response I had to your comment. I apologize !!
Original comment:
From Kay Anne on 3:10:
No you perceived the question correctly. However, since the Book of Revelation was written in Koine Greek and not Hebrew, I respectfully disagree with your response. That’s ok though! The Rapture (I am confidently pre trib), is not a matter of salvation, so I guess we’ll find out later (soon) whose eschatology was correct.
—————————————————————-
thank you for responding with such grace. I genuinely appreciate the tone you brought here.
You’re absolutely right that Revelation was written in Koine Greek. My point wasn’t that the text is Hebrew in language, but that John thinks and writes out of a Hebraic worldview. His symbols, references, and patterns are drawn straight from the Tanakh and the prophetic tradition. So even when the grammar is Greek, the thought-world underneath it is thoroughly Jewish. That’s all I meant by a “Hebraic perspective.”
As for the rapture timing — I completely hear you. It isn’t a salvation issue, and faithful people land in different places. My goal isn’t to win a position but to stay close to how John’s first-century audience would’ve heard these images. Like you said, we’ll all see how it plays out.
Still, I truly appreciate you engaging the conversation with kindness. It makes the dialogue worth having.
Revelation 3:10 is often read through a modern lens, but in the Hebraic context it’s a covenant promise of protection—not removal. The phrase “keep you from” (tēreō ek) means to guard or preserve, the same way God protected His people through trials throughout Scripture. The “hour of testing” fits the prophetic pattern of localized judgment on the Land, not a global escape event. So the promise to the believers in Philadelphia is about God’s covering in a moment of crisis, not a rapture out of the world.
Yeshua used the same construction in John 17:15:
“I do not ask that You take them out of the world, but that You keep them from the evil one.”
Same idea: protection without removal.
I hope this helps, let me know if I missed your question.
Here’s a warm, respectful, dialectic reply that stays friendly, grounded, and firm without sounding argumentative:
⸻
Kay Anne, thank you for responding with such grace. I genuinely appreciate the tone you brought here.(rare btw)
You’re absolutely right that Revelation was written in Koine Greek. My point wasn’t that the text is Hebrew in language, but that John thinks and writes out of a Hebraic worldview. His symbols, references, and patterns are drawn straight from the Tanakh and the prophetic tradition. So even when the language is Greek, the thought-world underneath it is thoroughly Jewish. That’s all I meant by a “Hebraic perspective.”
As for the rapture timing, I completely hear you. It isn’t a salvation issue, and faithful people land in different places. My goal isn’t to win a position but to stay close to how John’s first-century audience would’ve heard these images. Like you said, we’ll all see how it plays out.
That being said, I truly appreciate you engaging the conversation with kindness. It makes the dialogue worth having.😊
Brilliantly argued.
Going through tribulation doesn't mean we are abandoned to anguish. "Though a thousand may fall at your side, and ten thousand at your right hand, no harm will come near you. You will only see it with your eyes and witness the punishment of the wicked." (Ps 91) This sounds to me like a "great tribulation" and for those that make YHVH their fortress, their promise is NO harm. I believe this.
Also, Rev 20:4-6 speaks of the first resurrection of the saints who refused the mark of the beast of the tribulation and the second resurrection a thousand years later when everyone else will be judged guilty. "Blessed are those who take part of the FIRST resurrection." But Pre and Mid Trib theories falsely assume TWO first resurrections, one at rapture and the other at Christ's return when the tribulation saints are resurrected 7 or 3.5 years later.
Sorin, you’re getting to the heart of it!!
Psalm 91 shows the pattern clearly: God doesn’t remove His people from the place of shaking. He protects them in the middle of it. Revelation follows that same rhythm.
Your point about Revelation 20 is right on target. John only describes one “first resurrection,” and it belongs to those who stayed faithful through the beast’s reign. Pre-trib and mid-trib systems have to create an earlier version of that event to make their timelines work, but the text itself never separates them.
You’ve outlined the very real tension well. The promise is endurance with God’s covering, not an early exit!!
Love it!
Thank you Sergio, I appreciate your encouragement as I always wonder if my writing is clear.
Ok...thx. makes sense. That issue is a huge one underpinning pre-trib. Pull that thread and thier whole system collapses
I don’t get what youn mean by “Pull that thread and thier whole system collapses”? Sorry to be dull here, but would you clarify please?
This might help.
The “thread” is the claim that the 24 elders in Revelation represent the already-raptured church; if that identification isn’t supported by the text, the entire pre-trib timeline built on it falls apart.
https://www.sergiodesoto.com/p/the-rapture-reconsidered/comment/176810006
Thank you 🙏
Yup! That’s the tension. Once you tug on that one thread, the whole pre-trib framework starts losing its anchors.
I fully believe the church goes through the trib. Protected from God's wrath poured out just as israel was in Egypt. However, the church will still be subject to the wrath of men and antichrist and will suffer persecution and martyrdom
Also, one point on my views. The 1000 yr Millennium will see a renewal in part. Surviving humanity that enters in sees long lives, animals no longer devouring each other, harmony in nature restored...many changes, but not yet the final transformation or glorification that awaits the eternal state
Actually, my premill, post-Trib views tie in pretty closely to what you are saying here. The Lord returns. Living and dead saints are translated into ressurection bodies. Glorified. They make the descent with the Lord to earth. The Lord sets up the 1000 yr millennium. After which is the eternal state of the New Heavens and New Earth. The saints dwelling eternally upon the New Earth.
If I understand your position here, there might be some differences between our views, but they seem to parallel.
When or if you ever get to it, the pre-tribbers make a big deal about the 24 elders in Rev, claiming it is the rapture church. I would be interested in your views on that question of who they are.
Greg, thanks again for the thoughtful engagement. It really means a lot to me, very thankful!
On the 24 elders, I lean toward them being part of the long-standing heavenly council rather than the “raptured church.” Nothing in the scene reads like a freshly resurrected group. They’re already enthroned and functioning, which fits the biblical council pattern far better.
And one thing that’s often missed: John’s symbolism isn’t mystical or fantastical. He’s using shared imagery and coded language that his first-century communities would immediately recognize. It protected them under Rome and allowed him to speak truth without putting those assemblies in direct danger.
I’ll unpack it more in the full article, but that’s the heart of where I’m coming from.
Ok. Thx
Revelation 3:10?
You have to please forgive me. I accidentally hit the wrong button, I was doing this at a stoplight, which is ignorant. Here’s the response I had to your comment. I apologize !!
Original comment:
From Kay Anne on 3:10:
No you perceived the question correctly. However, since the Book of Revelation was written in Koine Greek and not Hebrew, I respectfully disagree with your response. That’s ok though! The Rapture (I am confidently pre trib), is not a matter of salvation, so I guess we’ll find out later (soon) whose eschatology was correct.
—————————————————————-
thank you for responding with such grace. I genuinely appreciate the tone you brought here.
You’re absolutely right that Revelation was written in Koine Greek. My point wasn’t that the text is Hebrew in language, but that John thinks and writes out of a Hebraic worldview. His symbols, references, and patterns are drawn straight from the Tanakh and the prophetic tradition. So even when the grammar is Greek, the thought-world underneath it is thoroughly Jewish. That’s all I meant by a “Hebraic perspective.”
As for the rapture timing — I completely hear you. It isn’t a salvation issue, and faithful people land in different places. My goal isn’t to win a position but to stay close to how John’s first-century audience would’ve heard these images. Like you said, we’ll all see how it plays out.
Still, I truly appreciate you engaging the conversation with kindness. It makes the dialogue worth having.
You are most welcome!! I read almost everything you post and value your perspective very much. Press on brother! 🙏
Well, my friend, you are a rare find. I'm very thankful!
Revelation 3:10 is often read through a modern lens, but in the Hebraic context it’s a covenant promise of protection—not removal. The phrase “keep you from” (tēreō ek) means to guard or preserve, the same way God protected His people through trials throughout Scripture. The “hour of testing” fits the prophetic pattern of localized judgment on the Land, not a global escape event. So the promise to the believers in Philadelphia is about God’s covering in a moment of crisis, not a rapture out of the world.
Yeshua used the same construction in John 17:15:
“I do not ask that You take them out of the world, but that You keep them from the evil one.”
Same idea: protection without removal.
I hope this helps, let me know if I missed your question.
Here’s a warm, respectful, dialectic reply that stays friendly, grounded, and firm without sounding argumentative:
⸻
Kay Anne, thank you for responding with such grace. I genuinely appreciate the tone you brought here.(rare btw)
You’re absolutely right that Revelation was written in Koine Greek. My point wasn’t that the text is Hebrew in language, but that John thinks and writes out of a Hebraic worldview. His symbols, references, and patterns are drawn straight from the Tanakh and the prophetic tradition. So even when the language is Greek, the thought-world underneath it is thoroughly Jewish. That’s all I meant by a “Hebraic perspective.”
As for the rapture timing, I completely hear you. It isn’t a salvation issue, and faithful people land in different places. My goal isn’t to win a position but to stay close to how John’s first-century audience would’ve heard these images. Like you said, we’ll all see how it plays out.
That being said, I truly appreciate you engaging the conversation with kindness. It makes the dialogue worth having.😊